Curse

Forgotton200 · Dec 06, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

This is pretty much on hold until I find more time as GW2 is taken over all my time.

The link above directs to the page izzy said that. This is probably old news but I don't see this discussed and it's my first time seeing that thread since someone linked it. Since GW2 took all the time izzy has, I'm wondering what the future is going to look like for GW1 pvp. Is the meta going to extend longer from now on because of the little time spent on the skill balance? Did anet hire new people to balance the skill because it seems like he doesn't really have the time for GW1 anymore from what he said.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Old newz -Izzy dun care.

Kaon · Dec 06, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

The less izzy works on gw 1 the better, he's always only making things worse.

Forgotton200 · Dec 06, 2008, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The less izzy works on gw 1 the better, he's always only making things worse.

I actually lol'd in rl and milk came out of my nose while drinking it. I thought anet hired him to make the game balanced, I wondered what went wrong.

[Morkai] · Dec 06, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I wondered what went wrong.

They hired him.

Bobby2 · Dec 06, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

[email protected] 'starting to get worried'

FoxBat · Dec 06, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

The less izzy works on gw 1 the better, he's always only making things worse.

Good idea. Let's rewind to nightfall release?

Forgotton200 · Dec 06, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berek

They hired him.

I'm sure GW1 would be much more balanced if he wasn't working on GW2 as primary.

[Morkai] · Dec 06, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I'm sure GW1 would be much more balanced if he wasn't working on GW2 as primary.

Then you would be wrong.

ensoriki · Dec 06, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I'm sure GW1 would be much more balanced if he wasn't working on GW2 as primary.

Im gonna sound like some loser , who doesn't know what im talking about.

...but I'd prefer ensign than Izzy *DONT HIT ME T_T*

Also...I believe GW1 would be screwed regardless, as long as Izzy was workin on updates, because he always adds some wierd random thing 25% of the time...which doesn't work.

lorazcyk · Dec 06, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

This is pretty much on hold until I find more time as GW2 is taken over all my time.
.

You're getting worried about THIS game's PvP?! Forget it.
What I'm worried about now, is Guild Wars 2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy's page, scroll down

This is where I'm spending most of my time, I mainly work on combat, reward systems, high level item design, and anything related with PvP. Although like anyone in the system design room I get my hands in pretty much anything, one day I could be helping arts by making a spread sheet that helps them with the Hue values for dyes, or get into a discussion about how player pets.

*lemming* · Dec 06, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Everything Izzy's doing in gw1 is on his own time.

Keep that in mind next time you bash him.

shoogi · Dec 06, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

He has done a good job in the first year or so.
Since Nightfall it has all been a downhill race, yes.

Zabe · Dec 06, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

The link you posted and no1 discusses about it. Go to hero battles section please, if you would have eyes, you would see its about HB.

dilan155 · Dec 06, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

just because he does in his own time doesnt excuse the poor job hes done recently, infact wed much prefer if he doesnt do any skill updates at all, its impossible to make a game with this many skills completely balanced+ if everything is balanced how can one team win?

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Dec 06, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilan155

if everything is balanced how can one team win?

Oh gaaaaaaaaaawd, I laughed soooooo hard.

Maybe by 1 team having more skilled players than the other team? Just a suggestion there....

Seriously, I actually can't get over the fact that someone actually said that, epic lolz

Chthon · Dec 06, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Everything Izzy's doing in gw1 is on his own time.

Keep that in mind next time you bash him.

If I went around killing puppies on my own time, how would that be any better than killing puppies while I'm on the clock for my employer?

My criticisms of how Izzy has handled game balance could fill a small book, but I will try to condense them down to four main points:

1. His attitude that it's perfectly OK to nerf something into garbage because players can just switch to other options is foolish and shortsighted. By taking things that are "too strong" and demoting them straight to "absolute junk," while skipping over "just right," he has steadily eroded the supply of "just right" options. He's left us with an ever-shrinking set of "best" options and a huge pile of unusable junk. This leads to stale builds and stale gameplay.

2. His refusal to nerf the root cause of degenerate builds, and instead nerfing some collateral aspect of the builds, always ends up destroying non-degenerate builds in the process, and leaving the degenerate builds capable of returning.

The most famous example is probably IWAY. It was clear to everyone and their brother that IWAY (the skill) was the root cause of the problems with IWAY (the teambuild). Everyone knew that IWAY (the skill) needed to be nerfed to put an end to it. So what happened? Orders got nerfed. That's right, Orders. The end result? PvE Orders necros in the Ruins of the Tombs B/P teams all watched their builds go poof as collateral damage for no good reason; and IWAY (the teambuild) continues to live on to this day in modified forms (though it's often said Nightfall Powercreep finally ended its superiority).

The example that still pisses me off the most is Spirit Spam. N/Rt's were holding halls using spirits + soul reaping for an infinite energy engine. Again, it was clear to everyone that, to put an end to this, soul reaping needed to be changed to not trigger on spirits. What happened? Soul reaping on spirits was reduced to half and soul reaping was raped with a ridiculous, clumsy timer. PvE necros everywhere were (and some remain) rightfully pissed off about their gutted primary attribute; and Spirit Spam teams continued to hold halls. Eventually the timer was made a little less bad (it's still awful though), and Spirit Spam was finally killed by totally removing SR triggering from spirits, like it should have been in the first place.

3. GW is primarily a PvE game, and I think skill balances should focus around what PvE needs. Izzy doesn't do that. Sometimes he throws us a ridiculously overpowered bone to keep us happy (see the un-Ether-Renewal-ing of Ether Renewal), but he never gives any serious consideration to how to make a broad selection of skills useful (but not overpowered) in PvE. What's worse, he's not even aware of the impact of his PvP-oriented changes in PvE.

Example: Every high-end PvE necromancer currently playing let out a huge "WTF?!" when he recently nerfed OoU and declared it a buff. Why'd he do it? Turns out he didn't know that anyone even used it, much less that it was the unquestionably best elite for human MM builds. At least he changed it back after enough pressure from the community...

4. And that brings me to point four. Izzy has a LOT of trouble admitting when he's wrong. There's a whole lot of totally unnecessary nerfs still in-game because removing them would mean admitting that he shouldn't have made them in the first place. (The prime example being the ugly mess that he made of soul reaping and just left there.) In some respects, Izzy "giving up" on GW1 has been a good thing here, because it's made him less stubborn and more willing to revert his mistakes.

Puebert · Dec 06, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If I went around killing puppies on my own time, how would that be any better than killing puppies while I'm on the clock for my employer?

My criticisms of how Izzy has handled game balance could fill a small book, but I will try to condense them down to four main points:

1. His attitude that it's perfectly OK to nerf something into garbage because players can just switch to other options is foolish and shortsighted. By taking things that are "too strong" and demoting them straight to "absolute junk," while skipping over "just right," he has steadily eroded the supply of "just right" options. He's left us with an ever-shrinking set of "best" options and a huge pile of unusable junk. This leads to stale builds and stale gameplay.

2. His refusal to nerf the root cause of degenerate builds, and instead nerfing some collateral aspect of the builds, always ends up destroying non-degenerate builds in the process, and leaving the degenerate builds capable of returning.

The most famous example is probably IWAY. It was clear to everyone and their brother that IWAY (the skill) was the root cause of the problems with IWAY (the teambuild). Everyone knew that IWAY (the skill) needed to be nerfed to put an end to it. So what happened? Orders got nerfed. That's right, Orders. The end result? PvE Orders necros in the Ruins of the Tombs B/P teams all watched their builds go poof as collateral damage for no good reason; and IWAY (the teambuild) continues to live on to this day in modified forms (though it's often said Nightfall Powercreep finally ended its superiority).

The example that still pisses me off the most is Spirit Spam. N/Rt's were holding halls using spirits + soul reaping for an infinite energy engine. Again, it was clear to everyone that, to put an end to this, soul reaping needed to be changed to not trigger on spirits. What happened? Soul reaping on spirits was reduced to half and soul reaping was raped with a ridiculous, clumsy timer. PvE necros everywhere were (and some remain) rightfully pissed off about their gutted primary attribute; and Spirit Spam teams continued to hold halls. Eventually the timer was made a little less bad (it's still awful though), and Spirit Spam was finally killed by totally removing SR triggering from spirits, like it should have been in the first place.

3. GW is primarily a PvE game, and I think skill balances should focus around what PvE needs. Izzy doesn't do that. Sometimes he throws us a ridiculously overpowered bone to keep us happy (see the un-Ether-Renewal-ing of Ether Renewal), but he never gives any serious consideration to how to make a broad selection of skills useful (but not overpowered) in PvE. What's worse, he's not even aware of the impact of his PvP-oriented changes in PvE.

Example: Every high-end PvE necromancer currently playing let out a huge "WTF?!" when he recently nerfed OoU and declared it a buff. Why'd he do it? Turns out he didn't know that anyone even used it, much less that it was the unquestionably best elite for human MM builds. At least he changed it back after enough pressure from the community...

4. And that brings me to point four. Izzy has a LOT of trouble admitting when he's wrong. There's a whole lot of totally unnecessary nerfs still in-game because removing them would mean admitting that he shouldn't have made them in the first place. (The prime example being the ugly mess that he made of soul reaping and just left there.) In some respects, Izzy "giving up" on GW1 has been a good thing here, because it's made him less stubborn and more willing to revert his mistakes.

QFT

Iloveyou

moriz · Dec 06, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

GW is primarily a PvE game

that's where your argument flew off the tracks and fell into a canyon. but otherwise, your argument is valid.

the main problem for GW pvp is anet's refusal to "ban" and/or "restrict" certain skills in pvp. some skills are only broken in multiple copies, and some are broken only if certain other factors are in place. with GW's skill count now north of 1200, doing magic:the gathering style banning is the only way to keep the game balanced and fun. this can be done in conjunction with monthly map rotations, and will always keep the game fresh and fun.

instead, anet and izzy tries to fruitlessly balance a system of skills that are impossible to balance.

kvndoom · Dec 06, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Sorry, but GW is a PVE game now, with PVP almost an afterthought. Yes, we all know its original intentions and direction, but it's hard to deny what it has become over the past 2 years. The majority of its remaining players are full-time or most-of-the-time PVE'ers. They have Linsey doing full-time work on balancing and maintaining GW1 PVE (and a very fine job she has done, BTW). Where's GW1's full-time PVP staff, dedicated to keeping the game fresh and retaining / regaining players? Oh, there isn't any?

Anet knows that most of GW2's sales will be from PVE-only players, and that's going to be where they put the majority of their resources from now on. GW1 may have conceptually been a PVP game with a PVE afterthought, but that mindset has done a complete 180 now.